Curse

Racthoh · Nov 24, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Just thinking about the numbers in the age old debate, thinking that there may be a way to simulate the Eviscerate + Executioner's Strike through a sword and whether or not it's as effective or more so. Mind you this is my first time approaching a topic from a mathematical viewpoint so more than likely... I've made numerous mistakes. However, please don't let it erupt into a bunch of nonsense.

The only way I could think of a similar spike for the sword counterpart involved the use of Gash + Final Thrust. Gash will inflict the deep wound providing the target is under the effects of bleeding, simulating part of the spike from Eviscerate, and Final Thrust at 16 sword deals +43, doubled to 86 should the target be under 50% health. Gash will also deal an addtional +10 damage, for an overall bonus of +96 damage compared to the axe variant of +84.

Comparing the adrenaline required for these skills, Eviscerate being 7 strikes, Executioner's Strike being 8. Gash requires 7, Final Thrust 10. As far as which can be achieved faster, the axe wins naturally achieving the spike in 10 attacks (adrenaline filled on attack 8, Eviscerate on attack 9, Executioner's Strike on attack 10) as opposed to sword on attack 12 (adrenaline filled on attack 10, Gash on attack 11, Final Thrust on attack 12).

One might also argue that Gash requires the target to be suffering from Bleeding, so that involves another skill on the bar to achieve the same desired result. The Sever Artery may take away a strike of adrenaline from the other two skills, resulting in the spike being achieved an extra attack later, however the additional damage from bleeding (3 pips of degeneration, or 6 health a second). However, this would mean that the spike from the sword is achieved on the 13th attack now rather than the 12th.

Supposing we have a stationary target, one attack is achieve in 1.33 seconds with both weapons. The bleeding from Sever Artery can be achieved on the 5th strike (first 4 attacks to build adrenaline). Thus in the time it takes to build the remaining adrenaline required for the sword spike 8 more attacks are required:

8 * 1.33 = 10.64 seconds

Thus our target is suffering from bleeding for 10.64 seconds resulting in:
10.64 * 6 = 63.84 health

Round it either way, it's a single point of health (63 or 64). So the entire spike total results in an additional +159 or +160 damage depending on how it rounds. Go with +159:

All and all, axe achieved on strike 10, sword on 13.

10 * 1.33 = 13.3 seconds
84 / 13.3 = 6.35 DPS (+ damage bonus alone)

13 * 1.33 = 17.29 seconds
159 / 17.29 = 9.20 DPS (+ damage bonus alone)

Let's compare this if the target is above 50% health however:
116 / 17.29 = 6.71 DPS (+ damage bonus alone)

Only slightly higher, however the +43 damage achieved from Final Thrust can be achieved through Galrath Slash 2 strikes earlier. Firstly, the bleeding damage is lessened by 2 attacks:

2 * 1.33 = 2.66 seconds
2.66 * 6 = 15.96 less damage

So either 15 or 16 less damage in 11 strikes. 15 for sake of argument, resulting in 48 less damage overall:

11 * 1.33 = 14.63 seconds
101 / 14.63 = 6.90 DPS (+ damage bonus only)

Any way to you slice it, sword is slightly ahead.

Factors to consider:

1. Axe only requires the use of 2 skills. The sword requires 3. However, this means that whatever armor penetration you have from strength is factored 3 times instead of 2 (Sever Artery, Gash, Final Thrust vs. Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike).

2. The axe requires the use of an elite, the sword has other options.

3. Moving targets. Both have the option to cripple the target, however, an axe can only inflict this condition if the target is suffering a deep wound which can only be achieved on the 8th hit. The sword can cripple on the 1st attack.

4. Removing the bleeding. In order to achieve the full potential of the extra damage caused by bleeding, one must administer the Sever Artery on the 5th strike. Thus, there is a 8 * 1.33 = 10.64 seconds gap in which the bleeding can be removed requiring another 5 * 1.33 = 6.65 seconds to regain the adrenaline for Sever Artery resulting in a loss of 6.65 * 6 = 39.9 damage in that time.

5. These numbers are pulled from the damage bonus ALONE. I would make reference for critical hits to factor that in, but I couldn't find anything 100% accurate resulting around that. You have to consider that sword will be getting in 3 extra attacks in it's spike, so whether or not the extra damage an axe might achieve through criticals and the 6 higher maximum damage is more... I'm not sure. Also not taking into account armor penetration from strength, since it won't make as big a difference against a warrior as it would a monk.

Not sure how valid my numbers are, and whether I missed something. Just some food for thought about the whole argument really.

tafy69 · Nov 24, 2005, 11:23 AM // 11:23

Whole point of spike is to deal huge amount of dmg and kill the target before he is healed,

using sever > gash > final thrust will just be too obvious and it will be healed up after the 2nd attack. I suppose if you really need a different elite this kind of sword warrior would make a decent replacement.

The Red Knight · Nov 24, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Hundred Galrath Final Thrust For the win

Manfred · Nov 25, 2005, 04:27 AM // 04:27

i have to agree, but spike for sword just means galrath-final along with the rest of your team (whooooooaaa! i just imagined an awesome team. smiters with 2 warriors, and soj spike along with traditionional smitage)

PaladinofRa · Nov 25, 2005, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafy69

Whole point of spike is to deal huge amount of dmg and kill the target before he is healed,

using sever > gash > final thrust will just be too obvious and it will be healed up after the 2nd attack. I suppose if you really need a different elite this kind of sword warrior would make a decent replacement.

Though it may take a bit longer, and yes you risk the chance that the monk will heal your target by then, in a lot of situations, the monk can't see that you using that sever > gash > final routine, for if he want's to see it, he has to target you.

To further improve this routine I suggest taking "For Great Justice" so you can get it up in half the time...that would further improve the edge this routine has over evi - executioner.

tafy69 · Nov 25, 2005, 07:43 AM // 07:43

No i dont mean he is seeing your skills, he is seeing the health bar drop suddenly and will heal it by time your 3rd (and major spike) happens. and the target would be under guardian by then if you got half decent prot monk.

Also the bleeding on target would make the prot use some kind of condition remover and prob remove your deep wound. Once he finds out u gota bleed to spike, the monks will see the spike a mile off.

Tranquil Soul · Nov 25, 2005, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Okay, lemme start by saying this: monks are not in a huge hurry to remove bleed.

Second why would you use SA as soon as it charges? I would wait for at least SA, Gash, and Galrath to be charged, after that FT is only 3 hits away.

Third, why does every1 talk about builds as islands? You do have teammates you know...... so what if the prot monk throws up a guardian on the target, get one of your necro teammates to pack rigor mortis with a cover hex before the spike and guess what, guardian does nothing! Or even better, get a mesmer to shutdown the monk, w/e works for your team.

This is all theorycraft anyway; this is not a "well you can counter so an so with this and blah blah blah." Because honestly that aplies for all warriors.

If a decent monk sees a warrior commin for somebody, you bet your ** they are gonna fling something on that guy regardless if the warrior holding a hammer or axe or sword. And you can bet that the deep wound from the Evis. is gonna get removed A LOT faster than some crappy bleeding from sever artery.

Oh and I can also see a multi man spike in 8v8 going much better for swords than axes. With axes you get a max of +64 dmg per person per spike combo. With swords you get a max of +96 per person per spike after the ground work of SA and Gash are laid down by 1 guy(this is with Galrath+FT), and even if the deep wound gets removed you have 4 other guys standing there waiting to put it on.

Plus you still have your elite slot open

jesh · Nov 25, 2005, 08:50 AM // 08:50

All that Ractoh is giving us is numbers, he's not saying, "OMG NUBS SWURDY FTW!@!shift!11"

So here's what I have to say.. it'd probably be more accurate if you compare penetrating, dismember, and exectioner's, or whatever. The point being, you're giving sword credit for using more moves, when axe can do the same.

tafy69 · Nov 25, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tranquil Soul

Okay, lemme start by saying this: monks are not in a huge hurry to remove bleed.

Second why would you use SA as soon as it charges? I would wait for at least SA, Gash, and Galrath to be charged, after that FT is only 3 hits away.

Third, why does every1 talk about builds as islands? You do have teammates you know...... so what if the prot monk throws up a guardian on the target, get one of your necro teammates to pack rigor mortis with a cover hex before the spike and guess what, guardian does nothing! Or even better, get a mesmer to shutdown the monk, w/e works for your team.

This is all theorycraft anyway; this is not a "well you can counter so an so with this and blah blah blah." Because honestly that aplies for all warriors.

If a decent monk sees a warrior commin for somebody, you bet your ** they are gonna fling something on that guy regardless if the warrior holding a hammer or axe or sword. And you can bet that the deep wound from the Evis. is gonna get removed A LOT faster than some crappy bleeding from sever artery.

Oh and I can also see a multi man spike in 8v8 going much better for swords than axes. With axes you get a max of +64 dmg per person per spike combo. With swords you get a max of +96 per person per spike after the ground work of SA and Gash are laid down by 1 guy(this is with Galrath+FT), and even if the deep wound gets removed you have 4 other guys standing there waiting to put it on.

Plus you still have your elite slot open

I guessed the guy meant a good old 2 warrior spike, bleeding is good giveaway of that spike like i said, and yes they will be in a hurry to remove it as they know a deep wound is coming after it.

If your talking just dps here then fine, but the op did say spike and if its a spike u want, u want the big dmg 1st then small hits to finish off, not the other way around.

Its no theory craft btw, 2 warrior mini spike teams are very common and very effective, and prot monks need to pay attention in great detail to their targets for the guardian. unless u got a bad protter that just uses rof all over the place to try heal.

Tranquil Soul · Nov 25, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Okay maybe theorycraft wasnt the right word.

I'm just saying that you cant use gaurdian as a viable reason why axe dmg is better than swords since they are both weak to it.

Also a spike isn't necessarily at the beggining. Spiking at the begging or at the end of your combo still has the same effect, small attacks and a strong spike. Healers can always heal through the small attcks wether they are at the beggining or end.

But I gues it just come down to where you want your spike, at the begging or at the end.......

tafy69 · Nov 25, 2005, 09:32 AM // 09:32

The difference basically for 2 man spike:

Sword Pro : Frees up the elite
Sword Con : Takes extra Swing to get the Deep Wound and the spike dmg is last

Axe Pro : Eviscerate Deals huge dmg and Deep Wound
Axe Con : Uses Attack Elite (Not much of a con i admit)

So basically sword is only good if u need your warriors running non attack elite, otherwise Axe is superior. Plainly

Eonwe · Nov 25, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

If you're running any type of spike build, bringing an axe warrior with eviscerate is a no brainer. Axes simply out class swords when it comes to high damage output in short amounts of time.

striderkaaru · Nov 26, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

give it up, racthoh. you know you want to try using an axe.
=P

Red Locust · Nov 26, 2005, 02:36 AM // 02:36

I think you're approaching this the wrong way. The DPS over the 10-15 seconds is pretty irrelevant (especially the bleeding damage, which is pretty much ignorable).

What really matters is that you can deliver the 84 base bonus damage + deep wound in 2 attacks with an axe as opposed to 3 attacks with a sword (for a bit more damage, but the bigger axe criticals can match and probably out-damage this). It takes 1 less skill slot, happens quicker and more often, and is more reliable than the +43 if less than 50% from final thrust.

The only advantage sword has over axe in terms of damage is that it doesn't need a specific elite, but as an offensive character, it's perfectly fine to be using a powerful attack as your elite.

unamed player · Nov 26, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

They need to make swords somewhat on par with an axe. With todays builds, sword is just old and everyone knows exactly how you will use it. When i play my monk in random arena for example, i know that a sword war will in no way threaten me as much as an axe war..or even worse a hammer war. Guardian pretty much stops axers and sword but hammer has that skill that knocks you down if evaded. Im not sure what skill it is because melee just bores me but to each his own.

I have to say though..i made an elementalist running high defence skills using a sword and just endlessly spammed sword attacks and for a cross class sword is the way to go. Sorry that doesnt help your war much but until chapter two comes out i dont think swords will be very much use. Maybe the assasin will make good use of it.

Racthoh · Nov 27, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

My main reason for tackling the subject (I've always been neutral on the whole axe vs. sword thing and left it as a matter of preference) was because on another site it listed a setup from Clan Zpzg. For those who don't follow the ladder, they're currently the number 1 ranked guild. Consisting in the build were pretty much all of their skills, and the two warriors on the team were running swords. Whether or not they used the build with consistency and against several guilds with success (regardless of whether or not this build won them games they felt swords could merit them wins), the warriors were observed as using Sever Artery + Gash + Final Thrust among other things.

As such I was put under the assumption there had to have been some logic to their decision. Lo and behold, I have these numbers. I was going to redo the math once I could find the average damage of both axe and sword but learned via the calculators on this site that the difference between the two was rather small. Less than a point of damage in terms of average damage and DPS. Nothing drastic, both apply the pressure in terms of raw attacks just as well. For reference, here are the numbers:

Sword:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/calcula...e=1.33&crit=20

Axe:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/calcula...e=1.33&crit=20

One thing I didn't calculate was what the DPS would be if the Sever Artery was applied right before the Gash and how the numbers would work out then. However, this approach seemed foolish. It would be far too obvious that the Gash would shortly follow if the Sever Artery wasn't applied until after this warrior had struck 7 times. Given that Mend Ailment and Mend Condition both have a casting time of 3/4 of a second and it would take another 1.33 seconds to apply the Gash there is that slight opening to inflict the Deep Wound. It would be rather pointless considering its very prompt removal. Also at this point both Severy Artery and Gash would not be near fully charged. Even with a speed buff the condition would be removed before the Final Thrust could be applied.

Applying the Sever Artery as soon as it fills not only maximizes the DPS, but also allows for a better setup of the spike. Should the Sever Artery's bleeding be removed promptly it does cut into the severity of the spike as mentioned and it wastes time. However, should they opt to ignore the bleeding it puts you in a better position especially if carrying Frenzy (if one knows how to use it properly). Frenzy can be applied as the final hit of adrenaline is required for the spike, at which point their reaction time to the deep wound is hampered allowing for a greater chance of Final Thrust to do it's work properly. Theory, but a possibility that I don't think should be immediately dismissed because battles don't last 10 seconds. They may last for only a few minutes, but would you not want to deal as much damage in that timeframe?

This scenario is probably far less expected than Sever Artery + Gash + Final Thrust in quick succession as responses so far has proven. You're going to see it coming, and countering it becomes that much simpler. Then again, if you see axe your immediate response is Eviscerate. A scenario that pros are probably more familiar with no?

I think really it comes down to the mentality of it all. Axe warriors are far more predictable than the sword warrior. Eviscerate is the staple of axe warriors in the PvP context. I do believe it was once said that if you don't have Eviscerate, use a sword. Probably going to regret saying this, but Eonwe you said it yourself that bringing Eviscerate is a no brainer if you're running a spike. In which case, would not a single Signet of Humility (a skill that I know sees play) to some extent greatly reduce the power of that spike? To the best of my knowledge, when an adrenaline skill is disabled for whatever reason, the adrenaline on that skill disappears. If the spike is THAT predicable why wouldn't you shut down the warrior's Eviscerate if you know full well the threat it proposes?

But, it's all theory. I don't have the experience, just opinion and numbers.

Phades · Nov 27, 2005, 10:25 AM // 10:25

You forget that you are adding swings to your harder hitting attacks in order to create your spike as well. The fewer strikes of adrenalin and the more adrenalin skills you use, the longer it takes to fill up to complete the spike. This is one of the big problems with using a slot on things like sever artery, gash, and cleave. Furthermore, you end up wasting more time charging up for final thrust compared to someone running eviserate>executioners, on top of draining out all adrenalin. Final thrust can do good damage, but comparing the two would be like comparing the pre-nerf ether renewal to offering of blood. One is clearly superior under virtually every circumstance, however in this instance the comparison is cross skill lines in addition to a eliete versus a standard attack.

Pinch · Nov 27, 2005, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Sever, Gash, Shock, Hundred Blades, Savage Slash, Final Thrust
in that order, with Conjure Lightning

Dead target.

Yukito Kunisaki · Nov 28, 2005, 04:40 PM // 16:40

I think it's perfectly fine to leave sword without a good attack elite. That means you can bring a secondary elite to match up with it. Sever Artery + Virulence means you either bring Draw Conditions/Restore Condition or you're going to burn a LOT of energy into mashing mend ailment [risking getting interrupted, skill locked, etc...]

If I would make a sword elite though, it should compliment the sword's 'trademark' effect. Bleeding.

But bleeding sux! you say...

Imagine this...

Bloody Thrust {E}: 8a. If it hits, it deals +38 dmg [16 swordsmanship] and causes bleeding for 30s. If it hits a bleeding foe, the damage is doubled and bleeds for 30 additional seconds..

*note, no lose all adrenaline crap here... ^_^

If such an elite existed, I honestly wouldn't mind diving on a sword instead of an axe. Sever, Gash, Bloody Thrust {E}. Wapow!! OR, just Bloody Thrust x2...

But a Virulence Sword warrior can ruin an unprepared monk's day...

Sever, Gash, Hamstring, Virulence {E}, Galrath Slash, Final Thrust

Heck, try this?

12+1+3 Swordsmanship
8+1 Strength
10 Death Magic

Sever Artery
Gash
Hamstring
Galrath Slash
Final Thrust
Frenzy
Sprint
Virulence {E}